Some areas need more immigration, Rhun ap Iorwerth says

Some areas in Wales need more immigration, not less, according to Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth.

He told BBC Wales’ Nick Servini, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday evening, that “we need more migrants in some areas”.

In 2023, 685,000 people migrated to the UK, a number which one senior Conservative politician said should be lowered to about 100,000-150,000.

However Mr ap Iorwerth said strained public services were the fault of the UK government and not migrants.

Mr ap Iorwerth said he takes people’s “genuine concerns” about the level of migration to UK “very seriously”.

“We should heed people’s worries that inward migration may put pressure on public services,” he said.

However, he claimed the pressure currently on public services “comes from a lack of public spending by the UK government”.

“One party would say [immigration] puts pressure on schools… the problem that we have with schools where I live is a lack of pupils.

“Depopulation is one of the biggest issues that we are dealing with.”

He said asylum seekers need to be “processed properly” and for those who don’t reach the threshold to be sent home “if safe”.

“We need to recognise how we bring more people into parts of the economy including health and care,” he added.

“‘Migration bad’ is a headline that some people – exploitative people – in politics wants you to read.”

Mr ap Iorwerth was born in Tonteg, near Pontypridd, in 1971 but grew up in north-west Wales – first Meirionnydd before moving to Anglesey when he was five.

After graduating from Cardiff University, he spent almost two decades reporting on politics for BBC Wales across television and radio.

He suddenly quit the broadcaster in 2013 ahead of a Senedd by-election in Anglesey, where he won the Ynys Môn seat for Plaid Cymru.

Ten years later, he was elected leader of the party after a scathing report on misogyny, harassment and bullying within Plaid led to the resignation of Adam Price.

Plaid Cymru has also shifted its focus away from an immediate push for Welsh independence to focus on the “here and now”.

The party’s manifesto does not go into any detail about independence until page 42 and does not set a firm referendum date, unlike previous iterations.

However, Mr ap Iorwerth described an independent Wales as the “prize at the end of the day” which he has “always believed in”.

“This isn’t an independence election… we’re talking about the here and now and how we can build a stronger, more prosperous economy for Wales,” said Mr ap Iorwerth.

Responding to Plaid candidate Ann Davies telling Radio Wales on Monday that independence was not coming up on the doorstep “at all”, he said every issue was related to an independent Wales.

“What’s important to people is health, education, the economy… all of those are very much about independence,” he said.

“A third of people now regularly tell polls that they’d be interested in an independent Wales.”

He said the aim of the party is to “take people by the hand or put our arms around them” and get them interested, in order to “build towards” Welsh independence.

Mr ap Iorwerth added that Plaid Cymru would make the “bold decision” of nationalising Tata Steel’s Port Talbot works, where thousands of jobs are set to be cut.

The firm, which is in the process of replacing the blast furnaces at the site with electric arc furnaces, said the Port Talbot works is losing £1m every day it is operational.

Mr ap Iorwerth said that “paying out that kind of money” is worth it for the government when the alternative is losing the the jobs and capability it provides.

“If the UK government can’t see the value in protecting that industry, protecting those thousands of jobs, plus protecting the strategic importance of primary steel making in the UK, we have serious problems,” said Mr ap Iorwerth.

On whether this is at odd with his party’s radical net zero date, 2035 – sooner than even the Greens – he said the UK must “move toward” clean steelmaking, not fall off the “cliff edge” Port Talbot is currently facing.

Mr ap Iorwerth reiterated his claim that Wales is “owed billions” in funding from the the UK Treasury from the HS2 rail project.

Plaid Cymru claims Wales is owed £4bn from HS2, which is designated an England and Wales project, despite it ending in Birmingham.

“There’s not a mile of it in Wales… we are owed billions of pounds as a result of that – just imagine what we could do with that.”

He also claimed the Barnett formula, which governs how much money the Welsh government receives and is based on population, was “well out of date” and in need of replacing.

Mr ap Iorwerth added that his party is “not interested” in raising taxes for people on low or middle incomes.

However, he said Plaid would be willing to make use of windfall taxes, a wealth tax or “equalising capital gains tax”.

“So, people who make millions from share ownership pay the same tax as somebody who goes out to work every day. I think this is fair.”

Nuance on immigration

Immigration is less of a knotty problem for Plaid Cymru than many of the other parties as they happily extol its virtues.

But Rhun ap Iorwerth introduced a slightly cautious attitude to the subject which you don’t often hear, acknowledging there are concerns which need to be addressed, before saying there are communities in Wales which need more, rather than fewer, people.

Brexit is back

No-one wants to re-fight the old battles, but Plaid are happy to promote their credentials as the party which unashamedly believes we should be back in the single market and customs union. But squaring that with the vote to leave in Wales eight years ago would be problematic for Mr ap Iorwerth.

Independence not gone away

We had a tussle over the defining issue for Plaid – you have to go to page 42 in the manifesto for anything detailed on the subject. I asked whether that was a reflection that people are not talking about it. His response was voters are talking about bread and butter public services and independence covers all of those.

Profile for Plaid

Mr ap Iorwerth has been everywhere in this campaign, popping up in UK TV-wide debates and interviews. Whether that has been going toe-to-toe with Nigel Farage or dealing with questions on the benefits system, the party doesn’t get this prominence very often so it needs to make it count.

Working with Labour

A co-operation agreement between Labour and Plaid Cymru at the Senedd has come to an end after withering criticism from Plaid about the First Minister Vaughan Gething. Could they work together again this side of the Senedd election in 2026? He said that was unlikely to happen in any formal way before then.

Mr ap Iorwerth’s full interview with Nick Servini will be broadcast on BBC One Wales at 19:00 BST on Monday – or you can watch it on iPlayer.